Increase your Sales Hit Rate up to 75% with the right Sales Psychology (🇬🇧) Mika Rubanovitsch, Imperial Sales

Wilma Eriksson: [00:00:00] Hi, and uh, warmly. Welcome to Season five of Fail and Grow. This is a podcast show with me. I'm one of the co-founders to Deluxe QCPQ. Easily and smooth, integrated to the rest of your ecosystem, creating quality quotes quickly and fail. And Grow is a niche podcast within oex. And what is opex? It's operational excellence, so everything that smooths your sales and operations, increase your revenues, and of course also your profits and margins.

And today I'm thrilled to say that we have a famous finish. Person with us his name, or at least you are called uba. And first time I met you, I was so inspired by the openness, the willingness to help the energy, and of course the bunch of knowledge you have within sales. And today we're gonna talk about sales psychology, but before that, uba, I would like a little bit more about you and the company you represent.[00:01:00]

Hi and welcome.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

Wilma Eriksson: Wonderful. And could you tell us a little bit about yourself and the company?

MiksDRubanovitsch: Yes. Actually, my company, o Imperial Sales Abe, was founded by my grandfather, 1936. And uh, of course it didn't do sales coaching at that time, however, uh, since 2000, so for the last 23 years, I run this as a private entrepreneur.

And before that I worked in various companies in, uh, various countries. I've been living in France twice. Also worked for a Swedish company. Lets buy it.com, uh, in France. Uh, and also I lived in Sweden and in United States in Chicago. And my mother is Swed, or was Swed and uh, Swedish is actually my mother.[00:02:00]

Wilma Eriksson: Okay, that's awesome to know. And, uh, you have been around a bit, we can tell. And you ended up back, uh, in Finland, right? Because there, there's where you're at the moment.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Yes. I was born in Finland, and uh, of course, um, this is my home base. And, uh, yes, since I started this own company, I have actually done it in Finland.

I wrote 11 books. Mm-hmm. And unfortunately, they are all in finished language, but, uh, but so anyways, I feel like, uh. I, I, I want to be the guru in Finland.

Wilma Eriksson: Right. You should always find your niche, right? Yeah,

MiksDRubanovitsch: exactly. Yes. That's my strength.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah. I have a, a quite funny story to tell you that I haven't told you before.

It was, uh, when me and, uh, the previous c at yet accept, and the Scho Bay was entering Finland and we were going to your, could we just say sales play? Is that okay? Uh, translation of Yeah,

MiksDRubanovitsch: I'm sorry. Yes. SA seminar. It was, yes.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah. So [00:03:00] it was a big day with lots of, um, uh, salespeople that should be gathered and get inspired.

So we just, uh, told the taxi where to go because none of us, uh, uh, found the roof easily in Helsinki. And we were like in this, uh, very cute village outside, a very nice villa, and we were like. Can't be here and then, and starts laughing and says, I think we are outside of Aruba's house. And I was like, no, this is so embarrassing.

You have to go from here now. So that's why actually we were a little bit lit to, to the ferry

MiksDRubanovitsch: the seminar. You, you, you compared my house with the stadium. I stadium. That's nice.

Wilma Eriksson: We were

MiksDRubanovitsch: like,

Wilma Eriksson: this must be wrong. And the taxi driver was like, no, this is the right address that you told me. I have

MiksDRubanovitsch: a big house, but not that big.

You know, if you compare with ice.

Wilma Eriksson: So sorry for stocking your family. It wasn't, uh, yeah, we, we didn't, that wasn't the goal. But, [00:04:00] uh, moving on to, uh, to your favorite of the work drink. Maybe you celebrate a good week or a good year or your birthday or something, what would you prefer to drink?

MiksDRubanovitsch: I'm a bad drinker.

And I mean, by that I mean I, I don't drink that much. But anyways, I would take a good French red wine, uh, anyways, uh, not cocktails. So, um, France is some somehow very close to my heart, of course. And, um, as I mentioned, I live twice there already. And now I also bought a ha uh, an apartment in, in Riviera in Nice.

So, uh, congrat actually. So I would prefer, uh, a glass of, uh, French red wine.

Wilma Eriksson: That's a perfect answer. And it's a very rare answer too, but, uh, uh, I love it. Why not a glass of red wine? You always go right for that. Well, okay. Thank you for sharing. Uh, now moving on to your [00:05:00] funniest work related, fuck up. I shared one of mine already.

Moving on to yours.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Um, actually, um. If you know Nordic Business Forum. Yes. Which has grown quite a bit. And it's, uh, actually the guys are from Finland and first time they started to plan this, at that time they were like, nobody knew these guys. And they were in New Vascular in the middle of Finland, where they come from.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And this young guy calls me and says, okay, I want to meet you at, uh, a restaurant in Helsinki. And he enters the restaurant, you know, uh, he had this white suit, which was not fitting him at all. Absolutely. Like two size too small. He was like 20 something. And I looked at him that he can't be serious, you know, and he was asking for the first [00:06:00] Nordic business forum, which was not that big event at the end of the day, but it was the first one.

He was asking me if I would like to join them. And, you know, like being the star on the stage. And I said to him a very high price for that.

Wilma Eriksson: Mm-hmm.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Uh, and actually, you know, I never heard from him anymore. He took my competitor because I was very cocky and I was, you know, behaving badly. Uh, and I didn't, you know, believe in him.

And I just thought, okay, I give some price and you know, they will never pay it. And then I get rid of the guy. Oh, yeah. So since that I, they have never invite me on the stage. And, um, if you know, Nordic Business Forum is now the biggest event in Nordics. Yes. And also they're in Holland and still I have to buy my ticket to get there.

Wilma Eriksson: Well, thank you so much for sharing that is very humble of you to share this [00:07:00] and, uh, uh, I mean. Uh, I, I, I met people doing, uh, similar stuff my whole life and I'm always like, I don't know who taught me that, but, uh, I used to work, work as, um, I don't know if you say dish, the one that do dishes at the restaurant, uh, uh, for two or three summers or something like that.

So I went to high school, uh, went to the stable, and then during the weekends when I didn't compete, uh, I dished and I always told my father that one day when I run a big company, I, I will know all the levels of the company and how, how it feels like, and I don't know who have taught me that, but from my point of view, it's, so, it's very nice of you to share this because I don't, I just, when do you feel at the opposite, doing like you did and, and it's very unfortunate that the business firm now is, is quite large and famous and the tickets are also very expensive.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Exactly. No, but seriously, like, I don't wanna brag myself why [00:08:00] I behave. I wonder that I behave like that because I was only 21 years old when I graduated, uh, uh, from the master as a master's, uh, as the youngest, uh, ever in a Finn history to be graduated as 21 years old. And I had already done my military service at that moment, uh, which is 11 months at that time.

So, uh, since that, you know, I think I'm still the youngest ever graduated as a masters, so I don't know why I behaved like that, uh, towards this young guy, because actually I have always experienced the same bad behavior towards me. Uh, but then that's why I think it was like, uh, a double hit for, to really knock, you know, from myself.

Wilma Eriksson: It was. But thank you so much for sharing. And, uh, may maybe you one just have that, uh, you are super intelligent or you're super hard worker, but in the end you will meet each other. The, yeah. [00:09:00]

MiksDRubanovitsch: One will learn and

Wilma Eriksson: one will learn. The other thing

MiksDRubanovitsch: I can, I can share you one more thing. I met this guy, I have met him since that, uh, several times, of course, but, uh, now when I, I travel to the, um, world, uh.

Seminar in, in Dubai, uh, you know, with in business class, uh, who was sitting in front of me. He was with his family and, uh, all his family was in the business class. And of course we were laughing to this what happened 15 years ago.

Wilma Eriksson: Oh, that's nice. That's nice you both moved on. Okay, well thank you so much for sharing.

That was a true, uh, true, you obviously learned a lot from, and thank you so much for sharing. It's very humble of you. Yes. But, uh, now we're gonna dig deep into today's, uh, topic. We're gonna talk about sales psychology. Uh, we are both sales nerds, so I think we can really go dig deep about this. But, uh, I'm very curious, why did you choose, [00:10:00] uh, sales psychology of all the sales topic, I'm sure that you could have been speaking about.

Um, why is your, why are your passion about this?

MiksDRubanovitsch: You know, after writing 11 books about the sales processes and how to manage sales and everything, um, I tried to understand what makes the difference with the top salesperson and an average salesperson. Because everybody knows nowadays the process itself, and you know how you should do it.

Now we have teams or two or whatever, you know, we know how to use the virtual meetings and so on. So I have studied what actually makes the difference with the top guys and, uh, uh, and the average salesperson. And I think that it's quite small things actually that are critical ones. I can give you a very concrete example.

Mm. I have been listening lately, a lot of, uh, teams meetings that are recorded.

Wilma Eriksson: Mm-hmm. [00:11:00]

MiksDRubanovitsch: And I look them through like a normal meeting takes, let's say 30 minutes, 45 minutes. Business meeting. And it's a huge difference in those the ways how various people act as a salesperson on a virtual meeting. And the differences are not like, uh, if they know the agenda or if they, uh, how the PowerPoint looks like or how they use the chat or something.

It's the wordings some very, quite small things that are critical. But when I share the videos with the sales teams and I ask them to come, uh, to comment, a lot of people don't even see those small things.

Wilma Eriksson: Mm-hmm.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Do you want to have an example? Definitely of a very small detail, which is so simple. The client says, for example, just middle when the salesperson is talking, oh, that sounds [00:12:00] interesting.

Then I'm asking, did you hear that? Did you hear that? The client says, this sounds interesting. Then some says yes or Yeah, I could hear that. Then I'm saying, what should you do next? Because when you listen to the recordings, most of the salesperson just continue talking. But when the client says, oh, this sounds interesting, you should stop talking and say thank you.

What was especially interesting for you about what I just said, and I tell you, I've been listening. Many. I have been in my life in many meetings. Many, I would say few.

Is

Wilma Eriksson: it a communication skills? [00:13:00] Uh, sorry for interrupt. Is it a communication skill or is it the

MiksDRubanovitsch: character? It's a skill. It's, uh, it's a skill to understand those small buying signals and, and, but sales people are so keen on their own approach that they don't have even time to stop and, and listen. As I mentioned, this was just a minor example, very small example, in a meeting of 45 minutes.

Normally I find in average 15 different buying signals during a time of 30, 35, 40 minutes, and in most cases, the salesperson don't hear them.

Wilma Eriksson: Does this depend on? I mean, I feel, uh, earlier when I, uh, early in my career, if I can, uh, call it that, um, [00:14:00] uh, I was often, quite often quite nervous. I was nervous to, uh, to reach out to the person. I was nervous to say the right things about my product. I was nervous about the knowledge I should have had about X and y.

Uh, is it more common in junior salespeople, or would you say non depending? No,

MiksDRubanovitsch: I had yesterday actually, somebody who wanted to sell me accounting services. Mm-hmm. And he made like. So many mistakes on that meeting must be so tricky

Wilma Eriksson: to sell to you as well,

MiksDRubanovitsch: actually, not because, you know, if it's a good one I buy it, but you know, if it's a good one, but yeah.

Yeah, I mean just, uh, let's go through just some basic things that are structured and some was the, uh, let's say the buying signals in the, say psychology. He didn't really understand, uh, the first thing he starts to tell about his own career.

Wilma Eriksson: Okay. [00:15:00]

MiksDRubanovitsch: Okay. So, I mean, if I'm a client or a potential client who should tell first, uh, about their career, I would say

Wilma Eriksson: the client, but not often the client want it or not always.

You can learn a lot

MiksDRubanovitsch: from that. And then you can maybe mention about your, uh, background a little bit. That was the first thing. So, uh, he put himself above, uh, the client, uh, which is not the right way to approach. Then secondly, for example, the material, uh, the text on his PowerPoints were too small, so I could hardly read them from my laptop.

Wilma Eriksson: Hmm.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Uh, I have, I, I, I could continue with several.

Wilma Eriksson: What would you say are the most, uh, important details that you find? I mean, listening must be definitely one, being able to read. That's one. But if

MiksDRubanovitsch: I go to the psychology here, then, because I have answered to him in beforehand to some questions, [00:16:00] did I see my answers on his presentation?

How did he take into consideration that I took time to answer to his questions? He didn't show respect to me, like, okay, I have used timing beforehand to answer his questions. He had taken into consideration in, in his speaking, but I could not see my answers and I could not see that he had taken, uh, into consideration what I answered in beforehand.

This is psychology, you know, because later on when you do your suggestion, then you could say, based on your answers in beforehand and what we discussed. Now my offer is following, but in, at the beginning of the meeting, you just have to say this liner. [00:17:00] Thank you so much Wilma, answering my question that helped me to, uh.

It helped me to, um,

prepare, prepare, prepare. So you just have to say, that helped me to prepare to this meeting, prepare, and then the offer is based on the preparation, the discussion we had. So you have to thank the client. This is the sales ology. Thank you Voma for answering the question. It helped me to prepare myself to this meeting.

Just very small details. As you can see, as you said, it's communication, listening, and having this dialogue. [00:18:00]

Wilma Eriksson: And also also, uh, respect. I mean, um, mutual respect, uh, mutual because I often feel that many puts the clients above the supplier. Uh, from my point of view, if we are going to collaborate and have a partnership, of course we should be on the same level.

But we have to earn that, we have to earn it through trust and to through respect. Then of course, curiosity. You are the expert here, so I shouldn't ran on, but I mean Yes, exactly. You should earn that.

MiksDRubanovitsch: But as you see, I have given you already quite many small details.

Wilma Eriksson: Definitely.

MiksDRubanovitsch: But, uh, I had an, a video. I was, uh, my, I have a client in Germany and in Holland, and I was watching their videos and for example, in one video, the client has not opened her camera for the first 12 minutes.

Mm-hmm. And then we went through the whole 35 minutes meeting with the team, and suddenly this client, an Italian lady, she puts on [00:19:00] her camera after 12 minutes. I said, the client puts on the camera after 12 minutes. And I went on, and then I stopped and I said to everybody, did you, did you recognize something special on the video?

And everybody was like, Hmm, not really. And I said, let's look again. And then somebody, somebody could see, oh, she put on her camera. And I said, okay. But what happened at that moment? And then we went the third time through, and then we were listening. What did the salesperson say? And then she opened the camera.

And it was interesting that then the sales team started to understand that finally after 12 minutes,

Wilma Eriksson: the

MiksDRubanovitsch: salesperson said something that was relevant for the client and then she opened the camera. But for the first 12 minutes, the salesperson didn't [00:20:00] even recognize. That she don't have a camera and didn't talk about it and should have stopped after one minute and say, I would appreciate to have a camera because you know, like, how would this feel for you if this would be all black?

Like, I know it's different, you know, like if you see my face as a salesperson, you should require this. And, and this is what you understand me. So

Wilma Eriksson: definitely I had the same experience yesterday, actually. I was talking to a partner because they're launching a CPQ light. So they were very nice of them to reach out to us and just inform what it, what's going to, uh, which kind of clients they're approaching, what is the difference through our CPQ, et cetera.

And I know him since before we've known each other for several years. But, uh, for some reason we used teams, you know, zoom is my favorite. Uh, and uh, uh, he had the camera on, but it didn't work for me. So, [00:21:00] uh, I felt, especially because the problem was on my side, was like, okay, we can continue anyway. But it's super tricky.

It's super tricky. You don't have that same feeling. And of course you can just post someone and say, please, sorry, is there something wrong with your camera? Do we have to reset the meeting or something? Of course.

MiksDRubanovitsch: But the crew was here that so few of these sales team heard. What happened in 12 minutes when she put on the camera.

So what, and it feels like, it was like, what was so interesting. So they didn't recognize that the sales person actually didn't have so much interesting to tell the first 12 minutes. So he, he, the sales person should have change his speech a lot. And this is what I mean with sales psychology, that they are these small, I call them buying signals.

They are not all buying signals, but at the end of the day they are. Because when she put on her camera, she also says, uh, to [00:22:00] the sales person, Hmm, this sounds interesting. Yeah. Then, but then again, he didn't stop there. He should have said, oh great. Uh, what I just have told you, what do you think especially has been interesting for you?

So easy, uh, question, stop talking and let's have the dialogue and this, um, I'm sure people thinking now, hmm, quite easy things, but by some reason, by some reason this is difficult in Salesforce, a lot of people,

Wilma Eriksson: but it feels like when you're talking about this, uh, I, I feel that I get frustrated because it sounds so sloppy.

I mean, everyone has been, uh, into, to some kind of athletic, and I know there's a tired, you know, to compare sales to some kind of sport, but yet, uh, the success is within the details. That's nothing new. [00:23:00] Uh, and is it, is it sloppy or is it, what, what is it the reason why a sales rep in general missed this?

Very important? Uh, it has to be

MiksDRubanovitsch: the, also with the preparation. Because for example, I told you this example of the accounting. I answered in beforehand, but he never copied my answer to his presentation. So actually the mistake was done already before the meeting started. Mm-hmm. So yes, you have a process.

You send questions, clients, potential clients answers you, but you don't use the answers. That's crazy for me. Yeah, but I mean, or you use them, but you don't copy the answers to the presentation and you start with a thank you like Wilma, thank you for answering. I mean, that is, again, a very small thing, but that's if you didn't do the preparation before the meeting started, then you can't say, [00:24:00] and this is things like, okay, I mean, somebody would say that it's, it's a, it's easy details, but it's not because you have, like, you have a lot of small details like that that should be, have done in the, in the sales process.

But of course it's a combination of structured sales process. What happens before the meeting? During the meeting, between the meetings, after the meeting. That is of course what I have been, uh, doing for all these, uh, 20, 23 years as a private entrepreneur. But now in my 12th book, I will do the David Copperfield thing.

I will just tell everybody what, what should be done, what is the right thing, why you do like this,

Wilma Eriksson: and what is a typical bronze people do? I mean, you have talked a little bit about it, but if you have to choose three or five, the most effectful ones,

MiksDRubanovitsch: the biggest mistake is that you don't have the dialogue before the meeting.

Like if, if you and me agree [00:25:00] meeting today by phone or by email or something, let's say we will have it in one week time. That's typical in sales. Alright, let's have a teams meeting, or let's meet face to face. Next week. So most people think that, okay, the sales will, we will meet next week. But the real point here is that the sales starts from that moment.

The whole week is sales time until you will have the actual meeting. And if you look at my closing percentage, I close mostly because I start directly a sales process. When I agree a meeting, I start right away a sales process and I sell all that week until we have the meeting and.

[00:26:00] Done a big part of the sales.

Wilma Eriksson: Hmm. And when you say you sell already, could you give us a couple of examples? Should you visit their LinkedIn profile? Should you send out those questionaries or,

MiksDRubanovitsch: yeah, for that I have a, a very heavy process actually, but, but, but let's, the main thing, that's the next episode.

Okay. Ilma, you are my potential client. So I say, okay, Ilma, after this phone call, I will send you a calendar outlook, calendar booking, and I would, I will add an agenda there. Addition to that, I will send you two questions and I would really appreciate if you answer to those two questions. It would help both of us can you hear psychology.

It'll help both of us to prepare ourselves for that meeting. And I'm down to details. As you can see, if you say it'll help, uh, 99% of salespeople will say, I will send you a questionnaire. It'll help [00:27:00] me to prepare for the meeting. That doesn't help the client. So you should say, I will send you questions to you.

It'll help both of us to prepare ourselves to the becoming meeting. You see, this is sales by college. Now you commit the client and then you say, Wilma, uh, when I will send you these two questions, will you answer me? Yes. I would say, then I say, oh, thank you. That is really important. And now I will send you an article, outlook calendar, booking with an agenda.

And the two, two questions if you answer or not, because most of the people now will say, they, they never answer. That's not the point. If they answer, you get the answers and you use them in the meeting. If they don't answer, do you know what happens at the beginning of the real meeting? [00:28:00] They don't answer.

They'll say, I'm sorry I didn't answer. They'll start with, and that is the best what you can get in sales. The client is apologizing you. And for that, I don't know what is the word in English, but for, uh, take it

Wilma Eriksson: and finish. I won't understand. You can take any word

MiksDRubanovitsch: Is that, is, uh, you are, I don't know, but I'll never be able to repeat that word.

I'll check what it's in English, because I, I, I should know it, but you know, it's a beautiful word in Finn because everybody knows, so it's like. Uh, the, the client apologizes the salesperson.

Wilma Eriksson: Hmm.

MiksDRubanovitsch: So I always tell people when they say, yeah, but they never answer these questions. That's not the point. If you get them, it's good.

If you don't get it even better.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah, I [00:29:00] agree. I, I actually, I've never put it into, I mean, labeled like that, but I thought about it so many times. You know, when the, when the client has to reschedule or they are late to the meeting and they start with apologizing, then you are on the same level.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Yes. But now, now comes, now comes the, the crazy thing here.

Now when the client says, now you start to understand what I mean with sales psychology. When the client says, the client says, okay, uh, I apologize, I didn't have time to answer them. You say, as a sales person, no, this is the most important part. You say, oh, OMA, it's not a problem. I have these questions here on the screen so we can go.

And what happens now? What happens to you as a quiet, you feel relieved. So first apologize, then relief. And this is like boxing, because you're talking about sports that is same in boxing. You kind of, you, you [00:30:00] know, you show them, okay, come closer and that, and suddenly you kick off. So this is exactly the same for that, except what we

Wilma Eriksson: do in sales.

We do the kickoff.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Yeah. At the end of the day. Yeah, I know. At the end of the day, you just knock out at the right moment. And that is the point. Um, the result shouldn't be that the guy, you know, falls down on the, but anyways, my, everybody knows what I mean with the knockout, that's the closing. Right. But, but before that you have to play, you know, round, not maybe 15 rounds, but maybe seven rounds.

Wilma Eriksson: Maybe seven. If you, um, were to compare different countries, I mean, you are obviously coaching in Germany and the Netherlands, in Sweden and Finland, whatever.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Yes.

Wilma Eriksson: Uh, would you say there are differences?

MiksDRubanovitsch: Uh,

Wilma Eriksson: not

MiksDRubanovitsch: that many, uh, as people might think because, um, [00:31:00] yes, there are cultural differences, how you should, uh, how do you talk or how you act.

But in the sales process and the sales psychology, I don't see that big differences. Everything that I have told you so far, I can coach in all countries. In France, for example, the difference of course, then we come to the other things that everybody's speaking on each other, uh uh, which is, uh, very strange.

You know, you have in a meeting and like you have five people and everybody's speaking on each other, and. For me as a fin, that's a difficult, I, it's difficult. I, because we more than Nordics, we let the other ones speak and then the other one speaks. But, and, and, and this everybody knows we, in Finland, we also very quiet.

Uh, but we use that as tactics and nobody knows that. But I can, I can tell you that we know that we are quiet and we do that by [00:32:00] purpose. So, uh, for a Finn, it's not the difficultness to be quiet, for example, one minute it's not a problem. But for a French person, I think two seconds is already, uh, getting difficult.

Uh, if you are quiet with the French one minute, let's say even after 15 seconds, they, they think something is really, really wrong. With you. So you have to go on and even, even in Sweden, I see, like you are also doing, you are like, mm, yeah. Mm, yeah, you are all the way communicating. In Finland, we don't do that.

It's kind of annoying if you do that all the time. It's like, be quiet, you know? It's better. So yes, there are some, uh, very, uh, a small, but that doesn't have to do with the sales process, I think. Right. That's more, uh, the communication way, way of communicating.

Wilma Eriksson: No, I feel like I should be quiet, but it's hard to be quiet within the podcast.[00:33:00]

I, I, I'm, I'm nodding, but, uh, yeah, I agree. Agree with, but,

MiksDRubanovitsch: but, but, but seriously speaking, it's like it, the same question if B2B and B2C, are they so different and people try to, uh, always explain they are so different. But actually it's not B2C, B2B, uh, business to business buying is getting. All the time closer to the B2C type of buying process.

Wilma Eriksson: Could you develop that a little bit further? Yeah. That means that

MiksDRubanovitsch: you should, uh, analyze how people act when they are, uh, buying as consumers, because the same way is, is coming to to business. To business. So, you know, they do the searching with the mobile phone. They are very active. They don't care if it's, uh, uh, teams or is it face to face?

Which channel are they online? The experience should be the same. I mean, if you want to buy running shoes as a [00:34:00] customer, you might go into internet to search something, you go to a shop to look up something, you are in the shop and also you are meanwhile, uh, same time in your mobile phone, you do searching.

You can, uh, look, um. Recommendations. Uh, you can call somebody a friend, you can put it in a Facebook, ask your people what they think while you are in the shop. You know, you ask, which one should I take? You ask quickly, uh, I am just buying shoes. What do you think B2B actually is going towards the same type of buying process.

Of course, it's a longer time, but it has same ingredients. So you should do two big differences and we can learn in business to business. We can learn a lot how people are buying in B2C and copy the best parts to the business from that.

Wilma Eriksson: Mm-hmm.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Uh, and people are, and also the second thing is [00:35:00] that you should look how younger people are buying because actually that is the way how people are buying in the near future.

So it's good to study how like, uh, young people between 10 and 15, how they do decisions. And what is their buying, uh, process, uh, and, and the cycle. And from that you can learn a lot. What would you say is the biggest, sorry, you go. Yeah. If you and me, if we would start a company now in any business, the best way to, to learn from the customer behavior is we would ask 110 to 15 years old people to buy our service, and then we will check how they would buy it.

Wilma Eriksson: Hmm. And what would you say from your already discoveries from this, uh, is the biggest difference from those kind of decision makers, the younger ones to, I mean, the average decision maker today? I, I don't know if, if she's 40 years old or 50 or 30, but what [00:36:00] would you say is the biggest difference at the moment right now, fastness, fastest

MiksDRubanovitsch: and easiness, it must be so fast and easy to buy, and it's.

Far too complicated in most companies because they B2B companies, they are stuck with their own processes. All systems, uh, whatever it should be so easy because you know, it's three clicks and you should have the product maximum, maximum three clicks. And, and, uh, by artificial intelligence, you know how people act, uh, online.

So you would know already if they do this, provide next information like that. If they do this, next information should be this and you should know that. So nobody has to find the information. You know that if Wilma press that button next, she wants to see this one or these [00:37:00] two ones. But if you look at the B2B buying processes, they are far too complicated and, and, uh.

And in some stage you have to talk with somebody. If I don't want to talk with anybody, I should be able to buy anything without talking to every anybody. Even the most complex, if wanna talk with somebody, I can ask for somebody. For example, how many virtual B2B salespersons do you see online? Like would you, would have, okay, I want to have a virtual salesperson coming in.

How many have you seen? Zero. I would say I have none. I would say none. And we're in 2023. Why do I need to speak to a salesperson? I don't wanna, if I, I'm not saying of course, but I mean, if I don't want to speak right, why can't I speak with a virtual salesperson who has, it's done with art, artificial intelligence, who might answer correctly to 99% of my answer.

Uh. [00:38:00]

Wilma Eriksson: Something that I've been thinking about a lot is that this we provide with a CP Q2. I mean, we create quotes to our clients who send to their clients. Yeah. Uh, I would say one, one in every 50 dialogue. Ask us if it's possible to implement it on their website to, I mean, to have that guided sales, to have the recommended product and services together to have the right testimonials and the.

The client itself just can be guided like in e-commerce, but you don't buy anything. You just get the PDF or whatever, how you wanted to present it as a h ML or whatever. But, uh, I would say it's very, very seldom that we get this question and we have this in our roadmap. And as, uh, also companies we're like, as soon as we have a big enough client that ask it, we will develop it.

Uh, but it's very, very rare and I don't believe that it's because sales managers or we often talk to CROs and CFOs, cos, et cetera, that I don't think they wanna maintain this big sales [00:39:00] managers or, uh, account executives or what you call them, the big teams. I just think that you are so, you are so certain of that the, the client wants to talk to someone.

Exactly, but if they want to, if they don't want to talk to anyone, if they're finished, for example,

MiksDRubanovitsch: you know what, uh, uh, HubSpot changed everything, I think would say. 2015 was the critical year when marketing automation came, and HubSpot said that, you know, it's overrated that peop uh, buyers would like to speak with salesperson until that we sales people, we built this drum, I'm calling it sales drum.

We want to have this sales drum. And Wilma, you know, you were not born and that time, but when, at the beginning, when I started in this Korea, the sales drama was like this. First you call somebody, then you meet first time two weeks later. Then at that meeting, you [00:40:00] agreed to meet two or four weeks later.

Then that was the second meeting. Then you agreed to meet for presentation of your offer. Which was additional two to four weeks. So the sales drama went on like two months before you even had an always a meeting, of course, face to face. And now if you compare that, how uh, anybody would like to buy today, like if I need something Sunday evening, I want to buy something, how easy it in B B2B, I mean, if you and me, we go and visit now B2B sites on weekends, it's almost impossible to buy any of their services.

Mm-hmm. In most cases, you have to send and you fill in, fill in your contact information to be [00:41:00] contacted on.

Can you imagine? This

Wilma Eriksson: is also, say, say psychology. Of course. Yeah, for sure. I mean, this, this is the same thing that we talked about earlier. We wanna make it easier for the customer to buy when the customers is ready to buy.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Right. I just, I just, uh, listened to a webinar here in Finland, um, about customer experience.

Mm-hmm. And they have done study with 60 Finn, uh, managers, and they were asking, what is, uh, uh, gimme a word where, what is customer experience? What is the most common word, equal to customer experience? And

Wilma Eriksson: mm-hmm.

MiksDRubanovitsch: The word is easiness. That is what everybody's looking for. If I need something, I want to have it with three clicks.

If I want to talk to somebody, then I can ask to talk with somebody, but I, I should be able to. Fast and easy. [00:42:00] Of course, now somebody will say, oh yeah, but we are selling IT systems. The price is a hundred million or 10 million or wherever. Uh, this Aruba from Finland don't understand the processes. I understand the processes, but these kind of companies believe that it's so difficult to buy something that costs 10 million euros.

It's not that difficult. They have done it difficult because they want to, you know, do this kind of, uh, the sales drama on their service. But maybe it is for me, I could be an IT guy. I've been being in business in, let's say for 30 years, and this is the 11th time I'm buying an IT system to my company, right?

I, I have done all the research already. Maybe I have made all the sales teams already, and now I want to take the decision, but I can't, I mean. Of course, I understand that they won't buy a 10 million IT system online with free clicks. That's not my point. But [00:43:00] we should go towards that.

Wilma Eriksson: Mm

MiksDRubanovitsch: Right.

Wilma Eriksson: We should have that kind of approach.

That is Exactly,

MiksDRubanovitsch: exactly. And let's say when our kids will buy, they will buy 10 million IT system online with three clicks. Definitely. For sure.

Wilma Eriksson: And I, I I, I can feel that everyone is like, yeah, they will do that. Yeah. But then we should ask ourselves, what could we implement today Exactly. To make it more like that.

And Exactly. We have, uh, I think it's like 10 years ago now or something. Uh, there was, um, I, I would like to say old ladies, but just stay with ladies, uh, who was selling, you know, the BMB Mini Cooper by phone. And this, uh, uh, was sitting upside in north of Sweden, uh, calling people and ask if they wanna buy Mini Cooper.

I don't know if the, it was a leasing or it was a, a full buy, uh, that we have to le leave. Maybe someone in the audience know that. But it was so successful, so they had to shut it down because the [00:44:00] resellers, uh, was so angry with this ladies calling their clients selling, uh, cars by phone. Uh, and I think it was at least 10 year ago.

So, I mean, that is, that is crazy. It says a lot. And that is

MiksDRubanovitsch: what we're talking about. I'm losing you now.

Wilma Eriksson: Oh, you're,

MiksDRubanovitsch: I can't hear you. You freezed. I can hear you will let jump back. Can we hear each other

there? You're. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Can you hear me?

Wilma Eriksson: Yes. I heard you all the time. What?

MiksDRubanovitsch: When did I lose you? So you freezed, I didn't hear you. You started to explain about, um, the ladies called from the north and the resellers.

Wilma Eriksson: Okay. Pissed off. So the resellers was so, uh, [00:45:00] uh, angry with the very great results from the phone, phone calling ladies selling, uh, automobiles through, through by phone.

So, uh, they had to shut it down and I don't know, I mean, how the resellers could have that much power. Was it BMV? Was it someone else, was the, one of the resellers that hired those delays? I don't know,

MiksDRubanovitsch: but, you know, know the same. You have, it's called vertical integration. Um, and forward, actually what you're talking about, and that is what Tesla has done.

Right, and I mean, now you can buy a car, uh, just online and, uh, can you imagine that would have been done? Uh, let's say this is a very good example that you are giving now actually, because nobody believed that people would buy a car, uh, online, uh, 10 years ago. Uh, then, you know, Tesla made it as a standard thing.

Uh, and, and of course you can buy it from a reseller, but you can buy [00:46:00] it online if you want. So that's a good example. And before, if, if we talk about this because, uh, car manufacturers are my clients, uh, before you wanted to test drive 3.5 cars or 3.5 times

Wilma Eriksson: testing. Yeah. Right.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Do you know what the figure is today?

Wilma Eriksson: I would guess zero, but maybe

MiksDRubanovitsch: 1.8. So, so that means that if peop not every client, even test drives the car that they are buying.

Wilma Eriksson: Interesting. And I would also like to talk about here, I mean, I've been talking too much about CPQ. I never do that more or less in the podcast show. Maybe I should do it more.

But, uh, the car industry are the only one that everyone has a CPQ. So they have that guided sense within their, uh, homepage. They can guide the customer, the potential customer to the perfect car for their needs. So just saying, we had this, uh, little, [00:47:00] uh, quite rude actually thing towards SAR Nordic. They had an event in, uh, I think it was in Malmo in Sweden, like, uh, a year ago or something like that.

And we asked, uh, the very innovative sauce companies, we at least think we are, uh, are car dealers sassier than your sales rep, just because they're using this, you know, making it easy for the customer to say yes. But it was very bold of us. It wasn't very nice. So sorry if someone was angry after that.

Okay. But I'm sure it is something very important that I forgot to ask you about when it comes to sales psychology that you want to wrap this up with.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Maybe the dialogue be before the meetings. I mean, uh, okay. Structure is one thing, but the dialogue between, we spoke about that, but,

Wilma Eriksson: but,

MiksDRubanovitsch: uh, really after, maybe I explained the agenda with two questions, uh, then you, but then how you can add and have [00:48:00] dialogue before the meeting.

Because most of salespeople say in the coaching sessions, of course I am preparing, yes, you are preparing that. Like you said, link did maybe have sent an email, text, a message, whatever. That's micro messages, that's fine. But when a salesperson prepares herself or himself to a meeting, the client don't know that.

The point is that the client should know that you are preparing. The only way is then telling that to the client that actually now I am preparing. So I give you an example. For example, the day before you have a meeting, you send a message to the client. The micro message, for example, we are link at it or whatever channel and say, hi Wilma.

So we have a meeting tomorrow at 10 o'clock. I am prepared. Just like that. A short message now comes the [00:49:00] psychology. What does the client think when he or she gets this message from a salesperson? What is the first thought I sent? I sent you a message yesterday that we.

How did you feel?

Wilma Eriksson: I felt like, uh, that you were engaged, uh, and was also looking forward to the meeting. Exactly. And maybe I was thinking

MiksDRubanovitsch: about you.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah.

MiksDRubanovitsch: That prepared. I wa I wa yeah. Prepare is one thing, but the psychologist Yeah. Aruba is thinking about me and Yeah. I mean, but that two seconds that you give to the client, that rub the sales person, is now thinking about me.

That is what happens in their customer's heads. Not, you know, nobody thinks about that like that, but that is the, [00:50:00] the emotional feeling that happens. Right. And those emotional things you should give to the client between when you agree a meeting and before you have the first meeting. You have a few of those emotional moments where you get a full attention and this micro message that takes 10 seconds to write, see you Wilma tomorrow.

With that, you get emotional reaction and attention takes 10 seconds, but it can be worth a

Wilma Eriksson: lot. I actually forgot to ask the most important question here. If you do these things, what wrestle and effects could you, could you count on? Is it higher heat rate? I don't know.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Oh yeah, for sure. I mean that you win [00:51:00] the deals.

I mean, you are, you are the preferred supplier. You, they want to work with you because they understand that, okay, after I buy from you, from this type of person, we will keep this, you know, a good level of communication afterwards. Also, that you don't disappear because you are showing also this emotional part.

Of course, you know, somebody might think, okay, how many messages is sending to the client before the meeting? You know, like, it's like 20 or how many, of course, not too many, but you explain. You explain what happened. You know, when you are in dentist, I come back to psychology. When you are a dentist, a good dentist, what do they do?

They explain what is going to happen next. Mm, yes. They always tell you, okay, now you will get some ugly, you know, and in few minutes, seconds. It'll taste bad, but it'll only take few seconds. Or now I will do this and this. It might hurt, but only for few seconds and then it [00:52:00] starts. Or what? What does a good mass make?

If you go to sports massage, what do they do? They never, uh, leave. If they move around, they keep their hand on your BA back and then they move on the other side. But they don't, uh, they still keep the hand on your back. Why?

Wilma Eriksson: Because you get the shock otherwise when the hands come back.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Exactly. You know exactly that.

You are the psychological safetyness keeps, you have this psychology safety. That's the same. What I'm trying to down emphasize here that by explaining to you that I'm going to send you an agenda with two questions and I'm explaining you and I'm writing to you that tomorrow we will meet. Everything is ready.

By that I keep the psychological safetiness you as a potential client to me. And if I have clients who've been my clients for 10 years or like that, sometimes they, they tell me now, of course they know my [00:53:00] system. So they are saying, if I don't get a message from you a day before, I'm already already nervous that has something happened to you.

And they're starting to, you know, to take the mobile friends, because sometimes I, I waiting until five or six o'clock, which is outside the working hours in Finland, you know, like four o'clock. Yeah. So, you know, so by purpose I'm not sending it, I, I keep it until maybe five or half past five. And I know that the clients, after 10 years, of course, they are really looking forward.

Can you imagine, if you call my clients, they will all tell you that they're really looking forward for this, uh, micro message that comes the day before

Wilma Eriksson: makes them feel special.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Yes. And that is great when you have that kind of relationship.

Wilma Eriksson: Of course. Do you have any statistics? Uh, I mean that your clients in general, uh, achieve when they implement your sales

MiksDRubanovitsch: psych decision?

I, from potential client, and I tell you, I I [00:54:00] wouldn't be in this business after 23 years if my, my, my structure wouldn't work. So I, you know, I am still here. Right. I'm one of the few ones that, uh, is, are still here after 23 years as a in sales coaching. So, uh, that is my answer to you.

Wilma Eriksson: Thank you for that.

And thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge and experience, well, not all your knowledge and experience, but a, a bit of your knowledge and experience. I think it was really thoughtful, at least for me, and I hope the, the audience feels the same. And I'm wondering actually, do you get inspired by someone when we're talking about, say, psychology, you have like.

Yeah, an author, author, an other author, author or that we, that, that we don't, don't speak Finnish. I can understand too. Yes. I mean, if, if, uh,

MiksDRubanovitsch: uh, I would put this a book that I would have liked to write

Wilma Eriksson: mm-hmm.

MiksDRubanovitsch: That would be the Challenger Sale.

Wilma Eriksson: Mm-hmm. That

MiksDRubanovitsch: book I love that one is the [00:55:00] best book in sales, really.

I mean, everybody should read it because it was so thoughtful. It was, it is still, uh, very adequate. D uh, uh, Dini's book. Uh, influence is another one. It's all from eighties, but it has a lot of that psychology, what I went through with you here,

Wilma Eriksson: it

MiksDRubanovitsch: has, uh, examples, very concrete examples. For example, why some waitresses gets better paid than somebody else, and so on.

Why some things are on a menu in a certain position and so on. So, which I have used, uh, also in sales, for example, when you explain the advantages of your offering, you should always have four arguments put in a certain, uh, structure. And, uh, the thing that you really want to sell should be on the right upper corner.

Things like this, uh, you can find in that book. And of course, I will, uh, more modify and I will [00:56:00] write in a more modern way in my next book about these things, how they work in the B2C, B2B, um, business, actually. So

Wilma Eriksson: very

MiksDRubanovitsch: interesting. That is what I'm gonna write about.

Wilma Eriksson: Interesting. Looking forward to that. And that is also another episode I feel.

And, um, one, uh, question that I'm superly interested of is what are your main challenges, uh, in your business going into 2023? If you wanna share something with us, I think

MiksDRubanovitsch: one of the main challenges is, uh, uh, a slower decision making process. Mm. That makes as an I am, uh, coaching, uh, also that's my main job and I'm also selling all the projects.

Uh, so, uh, you know, it takes too much time. So thanks to these, uh, teams, it's, it has lowered, you know, people want to have so many meetings before [00:57:00] taking the decision. And even if you do all the tricks that I have explained clearly, you have so many decision makers involved and more is coming. And that has changed a lot the way and the processes and even you want to engage the decision makers in beforehand.

Um, I can see that. Um, for me, the challenge is that too many teams meetings are required in order to close a deal. And, uh, also for the preparation. Even when you have a deal, the client wants to have pretty much of, uh, preparation meetings and like this, because it has teams has made it so easy to keep like 50 minutes, 30 minutes.

So at the end of the day, your calendar is full of these teams meetings, um, which were before maybe you, before met, met once face to face, one hour, and that's it. But now it's the, the, how do you say it's the, the lower the bar to take meetings bar. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You reading my mind. Lower bar to [00:58:00] keep meetings.

And that makes, uh, for a consultant at least a challenge with your, uh, time management.

Wilma Eriksson: Definitely. Mm-hmm. Interesting. Explain the same thing.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Challenge

Wilma Eriksson: at the moment.

MiksDRubanovitsch: And of course second is that I have two kids that are, you know, eight and six years old. And, uh, and then I want to be with them. And then also I have this.

A great project in, uh, Riviera, you know, renovating my apartment. And so that is a personal thing, but

Wilma Eriksson: mm-hmm.

MiksDRubanovitsch: And, but you asked that and that's part of life.

Wilma Eriksson: That is part of life. And I feel you with both, uh, I've experienced both, uh, uh, unnecessary, maybe meetings or that it's definitely more meetings than before coming to a decision and I know is also a case, a decision, but, but, but earlier preferable.

But uh, also the second challenge to prefer to be with your family and have a soon, 10 months baby, of course want to spend as much time with him as well. [00:59:00] And those extra teams meeting doesn't help.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Yeah. No. And that's, uh, how you, we come to the time management, uh, which is, uh, a challenge to, I think, for most business people.

Wilma Eriksson: Okay. Uh, uh, three quick lastly, questions here. The first of is, uh, is it LinkedIn? To reach you? Reach or do you prefer another channel? Maybe texting or email or,

MiksDRubanovitsch: uh, link It is best, you know, um, that is great. Absolutely the best way to reach me.

Wilma Eriksson: Perfect. Who else would you like me to invite to the podcast?

Maybe someone you wanna listen to yourself.

MiksDRubanovitsch: I was thinking, you know, we always give these examples of Tesla big companies, but mostly these big company CEOs are never on this podcast. We, they are used as also in Nordic Business Forum that I mentioned this story at the beginning. Uh, they have a lot of authors and professors, uh, lecturing, but not those [01:00:00] companies that they are talking about.

So if you would get a CEO of a Volvo, Ericsson, or some Swedish, uh, company, the big, the, the top, the top of the top. Uh, because nowadays I, I don't hear them that often in these podcasts. Um, that is true, and I know why, but, but that would be, I would say, if you get one who is actually working as a CEO now, not, you know, like, yeah, I ha I worked 10 years ago in Volvo, but no, that would be something I, I don't, I can't give you any name, but, uh, but somebody, but the challenge is

Wilma Eriksson: accepted.

I say operative

MiksDRubanovitsch: CEO at the moment. That would be great.

Wilma Eriksson: I must know someone who knows someone like that. So I would reach into my network, definitely interest and I agree with you. That be interesting. Very interesting. [01:01:00] And, uh, finally you have that, um, uh, French red, uh, wine in your glass, maybe in your new, uh, apartment outside of Nice.

Uh, and this song comes up. It keeps you, or, or brings that big smiles on your lips. Maybe your, your children are dancing around. I don't know what makes you happy, but what song are we listening to?

MiksDRubanovitsch: You know, I never listen to music. I give you this surprising answer, you know? Yes. Yeah. Because that's crisis. Yeah. Because most people say like, okay, yeah. Music is so important to everybody nowadays. And, uh, I prefer, you know, I, if you, I never have music on, and if I'm in a car, for example, I don't listen to music.

I know, I know this sounds strange, but I, if I prepare quietness at that time, but I would not say that I [01:02:00] would, uh, not p put the music on. Never ever. But, but, uh, if we will choose something, uh.

Wilma Eriksson: I think silence is a very good answer.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Yeah, I think it's an

Wilma Eriksson: interesting answer. It's, uh,

MiksDRubanovitsch: I would prefer silence, but, uh, then I think we should say that if I need to put something on, um, it's difficult.

Um, let think.

Wilma Eriksson: No, you don't need to. Let's go with silence. Uh, I feel that's a beautiful answer. Thank you so much for joining the podcast show.

MiksDRubanovitsch: Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks.

Okay.

Wilma Eriksson: Silence.[01:03:00]

MiksDRubanovitsch: So, oh, okay.

Okay.

Wilma Eriksson: Okay.[01:04:00]

MiksDRubanovitsch: My name is Mika Rubano, which I'm from Finland, and my company is Imperial Sales. I'm doing sales coaching, and my question is to you, how do you prepare yourself to a meeting that you have agreed and you will have it in one week time? What do you do before you meet the clients? Perfect. Perfect. It was a very interesting,

Wilma Eriksson: uh, episode, I feel, and it's, uh, annoys me that people are so sloppy, uh, including myself.

There is so much to, uh, to make better always.

MiksDRubanovitsch: [01:05:00] Yeah.