Become Profitable by Targeting Dream Customers (ABM) Wouter Dieleman

Wilma Eriksson: [00:00:00] Hi, you a warmly welcome to fail and grow the home of pricing and profitability. This is where you get to learn and love from the best within the topic and the ones. Who dare to share their fuckups. If you love what we do, share this episode with a colleague or a friend who shares our nerdy passion about pricing and profitability.

I mean, who doesn't? My name is Verma, your host and the co-founder and the CEO of Vox, Q-C-P-Q-A perfect fit. When your CRMs quoting functionality isn't enough, but enough of this shit. Lets tune in into today's episode. Here we go. And today I'm thrilled to say that we have Diman on the show. He's a freelancer within HubSpot, uh, super specialist with a BM.

And that [00:01:00] is a topic as of today. So we're gonna all be nerdy about a BM today. And what I, I always ask my how this. So what ER has done, he has had over hundred of companies that he helped, uh, being much more precise in their sales and marketing strategy, but, uh, at least 10 of them or a dozen of them, he has tried and helped them to land their dream customer Who wouldn't want that?

I'm so happy that you reached out to me, and I'm so thrilled to have you as a guest in failing Grow Today. Welcome.

Wouter nileman: Thank you so much. Uh, Wilma. Super excited to be here and talk about a BM.

Wilma Eriksson: Yay. So voter, a bit more about yourself. Who are you and, uh, what companies do you help with? What

Wouter nileman: Yes. I, uh, I'm voter.

I live in the Netherlands. Uh, I've been in the B2B marketing and sales space for 10 years now. Also working with HubSpot for 10 years when it was just a marketing automation tool and they were positioning inbound as the new way to [00:02:00] go. Uh, I spent five years working at a, a elite HubSpot agency here in the Netherlands.

And, uh, after that time I went freelance and been doing that for three years now.

Wilma Eriksson: Mm-hmm.

Wouter nileman: Mainly working with, uh, B2B SaaS companies, uh, in the Netherlands, UK and, uh, the Nordics region. Those are my favorite, uh, favorite countries to collaborate and, uh, also work with the HubSpot agencies, uh, to help them improve their processes or.

Also get, uh, one of, uh, one of the re dream clients to come in.

Wilma Eriksson: That is great. That is awesome. And, uh, your passion to become a freelancer, would you share a bit about that? How did you end up being a freelancer?

Wouter nileman: Yes. So what, one of the main drivers for that was to be a bit more selective about who I work with.

Mm-hmm. Uh, I had a very, well, very well, well thought out idea of the type of clients that I like and uh, and, and, uh, and the kind of services that I wanted to provide. And yeah, making the step through freelance really allowed me to work with clients that I like the most and where I can add the most value.[00:03:00]

And it is that level of, well, fulfillment and autonomy that, uh, uh, draw me into it. Hmm.

Wilma Eriksson: Nice. Good choice. And I guess you can also, uh, like contribute, like work from wherever you want, or how do you apply that in your life? I'm asking because me, myself obvious like to, I mean, I don't want to be locked in office.

I am happy to go there. I love to meet our colleagues, but uh, my soul feels the most free when I can be wherever I want. Is that the same for you, or am I applying myself on on you? For you,

Wouter nileman: you're, but, uh, rightfully so, because that, that is also a big, big factor for me.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah.

Wouter nileman: Yeah, I love working remotely. I, I do it from, uh, Spain quite often.

Usually in the city of Valencia, where it's very international with creative people. But I love visiting, uh, clients from time to time. Uh, and well, I have, uh. Invested heavily in building my own, uh, home office with a proper studio for recordings like today.

Wilma Eriksson: That's great. So,

Wouter nileman: uh, yes, I, I love to roam around, uh, but also have my, [00:04:00] my, my solid place.

So definitely recognize what you're, uh, what you're saying. Good to hear.

Wilma Eriksson: Good to hear. And, uh, what about the Nordics? What is it with our, with Austin Nordic people? Uh, that you, that you like, and how did, how come you ended? Uh, like, I mean, I don't know if targeting Nordic people and companies is the right, uh, assumption here, but Yeah.

Why the Nordics?

Wouter nileman: Well, first of all, I usually get along very well with people from Sweden, Denmark, Finland, um, um, I, I think the Netherlands and the Nordics are. Culturally quite similar. Mm. Obviously there are some differences. Mm. But what I like is the level of professionalism. Mm. But also on the same side, the ability to crack a joke and, uh, and have fun while you do it.

Mm. And, and be open to feedback and not be too bothered about it. Yeah. Um, and, and just we're doing it because we want to improve. Yeah. But with a smile. At least that's my style.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah. And it

Wouter nileman: seems to be usually quite well received, uh, in, in the Nordics. So yeah, it's just, um, [00:05:00] I, I enjoy working there. Mm-hmm.

That, that is the, that is the, the, yeah, the, the main reason.

Wilma Eriksson: You don't have to be, it doesn't have to be more complicated than that, right? No,

Wouter nileman: no, no. Exactly. For me, a personal connection with, with clients is very important. Uh, yeah. I, I. I like also meeting, meeting them face to face and, and, and doing other stuff than, than working.

So yeah, for instance, in a few weeks we're gonna go to Berlin and, uh, and, and meet a very nice client of mine there in, uh, from Sweden. Nice. So, yeah, that, that's, uh, that's, that's great.

Wilma Eriksson: That's good. That's good to hear. And, uh, for companies like us, uh, curious to explore the Netherlands, is there something you.

Guide us guide, like some culture intel, if you will, that this is important to bear in mind when entering the Netherlands.

Wouter nileman: Yes. What, uh, the communication style of Dutch people is very straightforward. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, um, we try to do it with a smile, but it's always about, uh, direct communication. So Dutch people don't like to guess what is happening on what's happening at the [00:06:00] other side.

We'd rather just have you tell us Yeah. So we know what we are, uh, facing or. Yeah. So, uh, for me, uh, I always ask for feedback also very directly with my clients. Like, what can I do to improve? I know you're happy, they usually are, right? What can I do to improve? So that is, um, and, but some people, I, I think in the Netherlands can sometimes be a bit more.

Diplomatic with the delivery, especially with more junior people. Um, it's also taken into account that they still have to develop some thick skin. Um,

Wilma Eriksson: right.

Wouter nileman: So, but yeah, don't be surprised if a Dutch person will come out with feedback very direct. It might sound a bit blunt, but usually then immediately after, um, the vibe is usually quite still good.

So, but that sometimes can be difficult, difficult for other cultures. Is that. When the feet, when the, the communication is direct.

Wilma Eriksson: Mm-hmm.

Wouter nileman: And then afterwards the conversation just goes on very casually with spouse people. Like, didn't you just, but we're not, we [00:07:00] separate those things. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

Might be good. To prepare for that? To prepare for that?

Wilma Eriksson: Like, like, uh, well, I would say like, uh, Finn people, but I don't know if they, like, they don't continue the conversation. Of course. Typically then they're like, all set. Yeah.

Wouter nileman: What, what kind of advice can you give and, uh, people from the vennel locks to, for instance, we work in, in, in the Nordics more specifically Sweden.

What, what would you say is, is culturally very relevant?

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah, good question. Well, uh, I think you have cut it very correctly, like yeah. Being, uh, like correct and have a high professional touch to things. Uh, but it's very important for people here to feel comfortable. Yes. And don't, uh, uh, appear rude or, you know, living in a good spirit.

So that laughter that you bring, I really could see how that works here. And then I would unfortunately say what you. Probably already noticed a consensus, you know? Yeah. That everyone should have their [00:08:00] possibility to share their thoughts, their feelings, their emotions, their, you know, everything. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, when you're trying to, I mean, to be honest, close, and your customer, you're like, who, who should we talk to?

You said, oh, okay. And you're like, what do they have? Like, not like do they have a saying in this? More like, okay, should I included that? Person earlier, like what role? How did it Yeah. You know, that consensus, you know, it never ending the story of consensus. Uh uh, but there's always, you know, people here are, uh, quite hard to get, to become close friend with, but we are very friendly.

Um, so if you, if you find that person that could be your champion, then I would say, and that person actually can influence the other ones, then it's a great, a great thing. So that would be it, I think. No,

Wouter nileman: that's super interesting. Uh, I, I, I'm definitely going to share this with, uh, uh, people in the Netherlands who like doing business in the Nordics as well.

I can see how that is, [00:09:00] how that is growing.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah, for sure. And then, you know, it differs a lot between the different countries. Uh, uh, and we shouldn't, we should not talk about this only, but just to add, uh, uh, a quick one is that in Norway they say, have a saying that it's like, work like a Swede and I. So if you're going to Norway, then make sure you have like the meetings set somewhere between 10 and three, because otherwise they're probably doing something more enjoyable.

Okay. I would recommend.

Wouter nileman: That's good.

Wilma Eriksson: Like work like a, like a, we, they think we work too hard, too much. Oh,

Wouter nileman: okay. I see, I see. I mean, it's so relevant for, for the discussion we're having today is to really understand your market. Yeah. Right. Sure. Is. Good segue. It, it, it took me a while to, um, to actually see, for instance, how Swedish people really work.

And then it turned out it actually a great match for my personality. So that was great. But yeah, if you go into other markets, yeah, get the culture first and then I.

Wilma Eriksson: [00:10:00] Yeah. I love that. It's like the a BM for you as a person. Yes. So that's really great segue. So, okay. I, I should continue here. Yeah. So, uh, before jumping into the A BM nerd, uh, I wanna ask you, first of all, what's your favorite off the work drink?

Wouter nileman: Ah, yeah. My, my, I'll give you my top two. Yeah. Which is, uh, a, a rum and coke, but.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah.

Wouter nileman: And, uh, these days, Coke zero. Coke zero. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I go to the gym, so I cannot allow sugars to come in and, uh, do all that work. Uh, I'll do all that work or, uh, yeah. It's a, a tricky one to call out on a podcast, but I do love porn star martinis as a cocktail space.

Yeah. Maybe you wanna cut this out, but, no, no, no. I

Wilma Eriksson: mean, uh, it's called Fail and Grow and we talk about fuck up. So, uh, porn star marists are more than welcome. I don't, I'm not that sure about the Roman Coke though. Uh, my husband loves them. I was like, your taste is really poor. And then he looks [00:11:00] at me and we both laugh.

So yeah, whatever.

Wouter nileman: Yeah, it's not the most developed taste I would say. People would drink. I, I like tweak stuff. So yeah, that's the simple as that. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah. As simple as that. Yeah. Why not? Why not? Okay. So thank you for sharing and, uh, your funniest work related fuck up that you dare to share with us.

What is that?

Wouter nileman: Ah, yeah. Well, um, I remember, uh, being an hour late for the very first job interview I ever had in my life in marketing. I, I'm usually very punctual. I've never had a, I've never had to really apologize for being late to a. So that that story, uh, it never caught up to me. Uh, I don't know what I invented, but they, they still hired me.

They

Wilma Eriksson: did

Wouter nileman: the same. Yeah. I thought if this is the precedent for my career, I'm going to have a very hard time. But apparently I learned from it because I was never, ever late afterwards.

Wilma Eriksson: Maybe that's what they already knew or, uh, or hoped for. Yeah. Uh, I actually did something [00:12:00] similar, but, uh, I came like a week before, like if it was like Wednesday, 2:00 PM or something like that, like that, I was there a week before, so I was.

Uh, in the reception, you know, waiting and thought it was a little bit rude that he was so late, but, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, uh, yeah, we, we started the interview, uh, and after like 10, 15 minutes he was like, you know, you should have been here a week from now. I was like. What, you know, I was like so surprised.

Yeah. And I of course felt super embarrassed, like Yeah. Like super rude and, you know Yeah. As you felt, you know, one hour early, late, you know. Yeah. Everything is just not professional at all. No. Uh, but I, I would actually say I'm grateful for that. He was, uh, he was not a good leader, uh, and not a good recruiter, so he only talked about himself and the company.

Oh, the rest. The rest of the full hour. Uh, and then Anna was like, and why? What could you contribute with? I was like, you know, yes. Just nevermind. You know, just, let's just forget [00:13:00] we had this conversation. Conversation. I think we should just move on. You know?

Wouter nileman: So in retrospect, you saved yourself a week of your life by already knowing that was not the right employer.

Wilma Eriksson: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Okay. Thank you so much for sharing. So today we're gonna do, uh, a really dig deep into a BM and what is it, what does it stand for, who is it for, et cetera, et cetera. And why I am, uh, thrilled to talk about this topic is I yet feel it's quite sensitive to ask a customer about their ideal customer profile or their RP uh, and, uh, even more.

Uh. To ask how they actually target them in what way. And everyone who has run like a growth organization, a sales organization, a company, knows how important this is to know your, your customer, and to talk with them in a way that feels [00:14:00] natural and logical for them. So thank you so much for choosing this topic, first of all.

Wouter nileman: Yeah, no, my pleasure. Very passionate about it. And, uh. Very happy to share my experiences and, and also learn from, from you because, uh, I know if you've been, uh, uh, um, involving yourself around this, around the subject. So yeah, great discussion. Uh, I think,

Wilma Eriksson: yeah, I think so too. And, uh, first of all, what does it stand for?

Wouter nileman: Yeah. That, that, that's already where it gets confusing. A BM stands for account based marketing, but the M in a BM is, uh, is quite a bad choice because it. Yeah. Indicates that it is marketing, but it's actually marketing and sales. Uh, uh, a very much a coordinated effort to land your ideal clients. Mm. Uh, and, and they have, the industry has tried to rebrand it mm-hmm.

By naming it account based experience like a BX. Mm-hmm. But you know how it goes with. Coining a term. Once it's there, it's very hard to get rid of. So now we just call it a BM and have to explain ourselves all the time that sales is as, [00:15:00] as much part of it as marketing, sometimes even more involved, especially in the beginning.

So

Wilma Eriksson: yeah,

Wouter nileman: marketing and sales alignment is a big topic,

Wilma Eriksson: and

Wouter nileman: that's what I love about a BM. It brings marketing and sales together in a natural way.

Wilma Eriksson: Okay, now we know what stands for.

A bit. What is it, what does this mean in reality? If, if a company works with a BM as a strategy, what do they do?

Wouter nileman: Working with a BM means that, uh, as opposed to traditional marketing, quote unquote, where you would focus on a lot of volume, a lot of companies basically getting them into your funnel. Mm-hmm.

A BM is the flip the funnel model where you select. A, a group of target accounts to go after, very specifically. So imagine choosing a certain industry or vertical and then just selecting 10, 20, maybe up to 50 accounts to very narrowly go after, uh, with marketing and, and sales as a team. So you already know the accounts you want meetings with [00:16:00] that, that is the big.

Uh, yeah. Contradiction to the traditional model.

Wilma Eriksson: Hmm. Okay. So who is this for? Do you need something in place? Do you have a specific, uh, average deal size, or what do you need to have in place for actually benefit than become more profitable by working with a BM as a strategy?

Wouter nileman: Yeah, that, that's a, a great question.

And, uh, and, and you already mentioned it yourself, it is about the deal size. Mm-hmm. Because you're focusing on just, uh, a number of accounts. So the investment per account goes up, and in order for it to be profitable, you would need a substantial deal size. And what we say is usually the, the, you would want to start with about $50,000 Euros or 500,000 Swedish grown more or less as a, um, as a starting point, but it, it gets more profitable towards a hundred K or a million Swedish Corona.

That that's where, mm-hmm. If, if I do A-R-R-R-O-I calculation, [00:17:00] that is usually what I aim for is the a hundred K mark. But from 50 onwards, you can, uh, definitely already get a positive, uh, investment back and be, be profitable.

Wilma Eriksson: Okay. Do you see, do you. Mm. Do you see a specific type of industries working with this more successful, or maybe your ICP by all means.

Uh, who are you target to help people work more with a BM than even more suitable? Uh, despite and of course combined with the average deal size.

Wouter nileman: Yeah. So it is, it is definitely suitable for companies that are mid-market. Mm-hmm. Or enter enterprise corporate. Yep. Um, because another crucial component for whether a BM is a good strategy is the, the sales cycle length and the number of touches you have.

Okay. And if you have multiple people in the buying committee that you need to get buy-in from the Yeah. What they also call an A BM, the multi-threaded. Uh, sales process that that is also a great fit for a BM. So yeah, [00:18:00] companies that do business with, with bigger companies, mid-market and up.

Wilma Eriksson: Okay. And how do a typical, I don't know, a BM campaign, that is the super wrong language here, but how would it look like if you put in place and we have those 20 accounts that we're targeting?

Yeah. What, what kind touch do we have? Do we need to do? What resources do we need to have in place?

Wouter nileman: Yeah, great question. So the key word around an A BM campaign is interaction. You want to have an interaction with your target accounts on an almost personal level. That's why it's so important to just have a small selection of them so that you can actually give them the attention and dedication that.

They deserve when, when you really want to land at that account. We also call it the white glove treatment. Um, is, is you really want to make them feel special because if they receive a message that can only be for them, that is when they know that you have done your homework, really took the [00:19:00] time to invest in them.

Um, but, but through your research and, and yeah. And that is so crucial to get, get an interaction going. So to follow up on the, what does an A BM campaign look like? It is quite often. For instance, this is, this is one of my favorite plays I. Is to do a market research report in a certain industry. So let's imagine you have 20, you have 50 target accounts, and you would interview 15 to 20 of those target accounts on a certain topic, and then you create a report around it.

And then that report you will discuss in a round table webinar, round table session. And the great thing is you are not selling to them directly. You are making them a part of your research journey. You're including them, you're putting them on the pedestal, leveraging their experience and have them contribute and, and that gives you the interaction that you want.

And, and you now have a personal relationship with these people based on subject matter stuff instead of [00:20:00] selling to them. And by doing so, now they know what you do. And at some point if they really need your service, you don't have to pitch anymore. 'cause they already know. And that, so that interaction, that is the key word.

Wilma Eriksson: Hmm. Okay. So making, um, like really high, uh, quality content, uh, by them contributing on the specific topic?

Wouter nileman: Yes, absolutely.

Wilma Eriksson: How to set that topic. How should you know that it's so relevant that it's, you know, uh, it's you, you're, you're able making a report of it. Maybe it's a stupid question, but I think people, I mean myself at least feel is really, really tricky.

I mean, what topics should we choose? What questions should we have and so forth. So how to set a topic that is relevant enough.

Wouter nileman: Yeah, that's, that's actually a great question that does not get asked a lot, so I'm very happy to dive into this one. Thing that I do, one of the first, first things in a strategy is, [00:21:00] um, I, uh, give my clients the quote unquote homework to talk to their clients and see what is keeping them busy.

So at least three clients in that vertical that we've chosen, go and interview them and ask what is on their mind? What is keeping them up at night? And then even better also doing it with prospects. This is your first. Chance to get a non CC hook in by just saying, Hey look, we're trying to, um, expand our authority in this, uh, vertical, but we don't wanna do it based on knowledge.

As a company in this space, what is keeping you busy? Can we pick your brain for 15 to 30 minutes? And, and most leaders at bigger mid-market companies, they love that going on a pedestal, sharing their experience. So that is a great way to get some of the first prospects in. I

Wilma Eriksson: love that. Going on the pedestal.

I can really see that. Yeah. Yeah.

Wouter nileman: Visualize, right? Yeah.

Wilma Eriksson: But that's a. Talk about themselves and share their learnings and expertise. [00:22:00] And, uh, of course also what's keeping them up at night. Uh, makes sense. It truly makes sense. Uh, do we have other ways, uh, that you typically see is successful?

Wouter nileman: So, interaction also goes, not just you talking to your prospects, but also usually the content format.

So what works really well is a round table session where you put a few of those prospects. In the session session and then make it interactive for the other target accounts to ask questions and chime in and get a discussion going. Sometimes we also, who host like a bit more exclusive dinner parties with, with just the right target accounts just for them to exchange.

And you don't really have to do a lot actually, it's just. Pick a nice restaurant, uh, may introduce them to each other and then just let it flow freely. Um, so yeah, interaction is not just you with your target accounts, but also the content formats. Um, but it's really important to understand that the first campaign is usually a warmup [00:23:00] campaign.

Mm-hmm. What you want to have is a list of engaged accounts and, uh, accounts that have shown engagement with what you do. And only then can you very subtly move them into Yeah. Sales activation or sales follow up. Um, so basically the first six months that we spend on a BM plays is three months to map out the strategy and the campaign plan.

And then the next three months is to build a great warmup campaign, interactive Roundtable webinar. Dinner party, that kind of, those kinds of formats and just the level of authority that you're building without being salesy, that that is, that is the effect that you want to achieve.

Wilma Eriksson: Right. Very interesting.

And very hands-on. I love that. And I know that you have a very hands-on model with numbers and everything. Yeah. Could you talk a little bit about, uh, vouchers? Strategy Yeah. That you help customers with, because I really, really love, I understand that it's a little bit salesy if you'll, [00:24:00] but it's so good.

So would you please share a little bit about how you work with this?

Wouter nileman: Yeah. Well, thank you. Uh, I'm glad to hear that it made a positive impression on you. Um, everything

Wilma Eriksson: that's measurable, right? Yes.

Wouter nileman: You are all about profitability. Yes. And, and that's I think why we also connected in such a way, because I am as well.

The, the only thing that I want from my clients when they're done with the program is to at least break even on, on the, on the pilot, but obviously hoping to be, and usually are profitable already. So what I do is, as is I do an analysis on. What this is what your team should be. Mm-hmm. So these are the roles that you have and don't have.

And I can bring in the remaining ones. Preferably you have all your people, so I can also train them quite often. That is the case. Mm-hmm. And then that, that gives you a marketing and sales expense number. Right. So this is now we're just still talking about people.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah. What kind of people would you mention?

A few that like key resource is very important. Yeah.

Wouter nileman: Um, so the first [00:25:00] one is, uh, the A BM lead. Um, that is the one driving the program. That is the one setting the strategy, the campaign plan, uh, that, that, that is your Yeah. Uh, that's the first key role. Mm-hmm. And usually when clients hire me, I am the A BM lead.

Right, right. And, and hopefully they have a person that has the aspiration to become one. Mm-hmm. So that I can train them on the job and then they can do afterwards, uh, do it themselves. Crucial role number two, growth marketer. Mm-hmm. That is the person putting the campaign together in HubSpot or whatever system you are using.

Um, setting up the, the, the ads, uh, and really driving the campaign forward. The third role is the CRM specialist, because quite often a BM uh, is a, is a, kind of, is a very specific process and usually in your CRM you will have to make a few adjustments, not majorly, but doing the right thing so that sales has the right notifications, the right workflows to be notified of account movements.

So, uh, someone with CRM knowledge is a, a key role as well in [00:26:00] the team. Mm-hmm. Then you have a combination of salespeople, so A, BDR. Mm-hmm. Um, that is the one in the trenches on sales Navigator, doing the account research, keeping track of the accounts, um, usually combined with a account manager, account executive, and that is the person closing the deal, building further the trust with, with, with the client, going out at events, doing the social selling.

So yeah, we'd love to see that Tandem sales tandem. It can be just one salesperson. But ideally you would have a combination of A BDR and account executive, at least in that B2B SaaS model. Um, u usually I, I'm helping a, a HubSpot agency now in Sweden. And, uh. It is not, that is just the owner there doing the sales.

So we are on top of the accounts together and I'm supporting him with the, with the research.

Wilma Eriksson: I'm familiar with that founder led sales. Please save me from it one day. If you're a great sales rep out there, reach out. Sorry for hacking. No,

Wouter nileman: absolutely. You're ab absolutely right. That's, uh, that's great. [00:27:00] Yeah.

And that's what you see with the well most BB SaaS in the beginning as well, is a lot of founder LA sales. Yeah. And they actually love. Being part of the program with a BM because it becomes so focused for them all of a sudden like, wow, this is our vertical, our top 20 accounts. We're gonna go after them.

I know this guy there. I know this lady over there. Yeah. And it becomes so concrete that they just wanna be a part of it and they prioritize it. And for me that's great. And also for the company, because they now. All of a sudden have this like compass,

Wilma Eriksson: right? Because it's good. Of course. It must be, uh, uh, good for you.

I mean, really engaged customer. Of course. Yeah. And you have the whole company working toward this because I assume I'm jumping a bit here, but I assume it's very important to really set like, this is the way we working now. We are gonna try this out, we're gonna do this. And so, so I mean, you have to do it fully, right?

Wouter nileman: About the team. So very relevant. So I, I always tell the person, like my [00:28:00] decision maker and champion, it is crucial that you will free up the time for these people. So in my worksheet, I also have the time designated for each of the roles. Like, you will need this person for an X amount of hours per month.

Yeah. And so to complete that list, uh, content marketer, crucial for all of the campaign content, um, putting together the webinar, uh, creating, creating the, the ad copy. Should, should we run campaigns like that?

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah.

Wouter nileman: Uh, yeah. And, and the digital, uh, designers obviously a key role in putting the visual assets together.

And if they have a product marketer or product marketing manager or lead, that is a great person to get involved for the positioning and messaging exercise. So, uh, yeah, this recent a BM program that I'm doing here in Sweden, we have a great, um, a person with a great vision on, on what the positioning and messaging should be, and we have created a whole.

Yeah. Content matrix framework and, and, and messaging house exactly for that [00:29:00] proposition in the vertical. And, and, and we will always use that as a fallback in our campaigns. Like this is the core language that we will use time and time again to get that congruent, consistent messaging. So also a key role.

It can also be the content marketer, so it doesn't have to be a product marketing manager, but, uh, if, if they ha if the client has one, that is, that is great.

Wilma Eriksson: And I also assume if you are a smaller company, then these roles need to be covered, but you don't have to have one of each, or you can of course, work with under consults or something similar.

It's just important that you, that you bear in mind that you have to have all these kind resources on board or,

Wouter nileman: yes. So, um, at smaller companies. Some of the roles are being combined into one person. Yep. Right. So content marketer and product marketing manager are of often combined because content marketers are usually very good at positioning and messaging.

Uh, and, and if they have just one salesperson, that is definitely enough.

Wilma Eriksson: Okay. Um,

Wouter nileman: and, and you can use freelancers, right? You don't have to have an [00:30:00] in-house visual digital designer. If you have a very good freelancer that knows your brand, then that's great. I, I, I work with many companies who do it like that.

Wilma Eriksson: You just have to be aware that you need to have it must walk the talk. Yes. Good, good. Be good, be very, very, yeah. Customized.

Wouter nileman: Exactly, yes.

Wilma Eriksson: Okay.

Wouter nileman: Yeah.

Wilma Eriksson: Was that all?

Wouter nileman: Yes.

Wilma Eriksson: Did we cover all the roles?

Wouter nileman: Yes, indeed. Great. Okay. And, and this will give you the, the, the people expenses.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah.

Wouter nileman: Uh Right. That, that will give you a total number.

Wilma Eriksson: Yep.

Wouter nileman: Yeah. What we then do is take the, the, the, the, the marketing and sales expenses is what we call them. Mm-hmm. And then add an estimated campaign budget. I, I know from experience what more or less, uh, a usual a BM campaign will cost in terms of media spend. Right. What you will. Spend on LinkedIn advertising, creating the assets.

Wilma Eriksson: Do you have any numbers you wanna share with us?

Wouter nileman: Yeah, it's, it's usually I budget anywhere, depending a bit on the company, but between 10 and 20 K. Mm-hmm. Um, for campaign budget.

Wilma Eriksson: Euros.

Wouter nileman: Yes. Sorry. Yes. So you can multiply that [00:31:00] by 10 to get to the Swedish.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah, I often can do that.

Wouter nileman: Yeah. Yeah. And, and then usually, so I have the calculation in front of me here.

Usually what, what it will, uh, what you will invest on on the team side is. With, with, uh, with my role included is close to a hundred K. Okay? Mm-hmm. So usually the total MB budget is usually between a hundred and 120 K euros or dollars. It's similar. So, and what we then look is, okay, your tier one client, mm, what is your annual contract value?

What is your deal size for a tier one client? Let's, in the example use a hundred k, um, euros of dollars. Mm-hmm. So then you already know that, okay, for me to more or less break even or become profitable, let's get two clients in after six months, because this calculation is based on six months. Okay. So if there, after six months of campaigning, we get two clients, then we will [00:32:00] already have made a profit.

Now if you are a bit more strict business wise, you could even calculate it based on margin. That is what I typically do. Mm-hmm. Right, is for entrepreneurs, they love to see that, like, let's take your product, especially in SaaS, you have like 60, 70, 80% margin. So if we just look at the margin, then what do we then need to close so that you will have a true profit and that that's what I go after.

So that will then spit out a number. We need an X amount of clients to be profitable. Then we look at the win rate that they have in their pipeline, meaning that we need an X amount of deals in the pipeline by the end of this date to hit our profitable target. And then you can co calculate based on the historical conversion rates all the way back up until you know the number of engaged accounts you should.

Generate through your warmup campaign, and it becomes so tangible and concrete doing it in that manner because they know I [00:33:00] will invest this, I will get X out of it if we hit these marks. Yeah. And all of a sudden, from all of the opportunities you have in your business, you now have isolated one and with a laser targeted campaign.

Yeah. Ready for that. So that's awesome. Usually well, well received.

Wilma Eriksson: It's very, very clear. Uh, and thank you for sharing. So you could put in your numbers, like your average deal size, uh, your, uh, actual win rate for the moment. Yeah. And then you can very clearly see, is this for us or not, or how many customers do we actually need to cover all the costs?

And if you do it even more. Wisely, if I could say. So. You can also see the true profitability in this, so that's very, very clear. But what, where would you say, um, maybe not where companies goes wrong, but where's trickiest for companies to succeed with a BM in overall?

Wouter nileman: Yeah. That is, uh, the, the alignment between marketing and sales.

Mm.

Wilma Eriksson: I hope you wouldn't say that, but [00:34:00] Okay.

Wouter nileman: Yeah,

Wilma Eriksson: I've heard it before.

Wouter nileman: Yeah. It's the, it's, it's the, the saying that has been going on for ages, right? Right. But the good thing about a BM is it actually brings the two teams closer together and you will not talk about anymore, like, I need X amount of leads from you and, uh, you're not following up on my leads within 48 hours.

Now it actually becomes, we have these 20 accounts in front of us. What can we do together to land meetings?

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah,

Wouter nileman: so just by doing a. The alignment in your organization will increase? I, it always is the case. So it is actually apart from the profitability. Right. Which go, which will go up. This is also for your revenue operations process and how your teams interact.

Uh, it is very beneficial for sure.

Wilma Eriksson: Okay. Overall, a BM, you wanna have it to become more profitable and it's suitable for your business. What, uh, should I asked you about that's like, important that people know that you're [00:35:00] passionate about yourself or something you just wanna add to the conversation?

Wouter nileman: Yeah.

My, my advice to anyone starting out with a BM is start small. There's no need to buy. Uh, advanced costly software to run very sophisticated, uh, one-to-one targeted campaigns. It is, just start off with this, this is what I always say, 10 accounts in one vertical with, uh, a good marketing team and one or two sales reps, and just start with that and try to get a deal out of those 10 accounts or, or 20 or 30, but don't make it too complicated.

Interview them on what they would want to see in a content piece. Create that content piece, make them part of the campaign of the actual content creation, your prospects that is, and, and double already, and, and get a, get a successful formula going, and then you can expand on it. And, and, and you can take those results to leadership and actually show like we have a targeted approach [00:36:00] and, and we are contributing to revenue now as a marketing team that there is a great proposition to have.

Wilma Eriksson: I love this because that is often very, very tricky. When you aren't a co-founder as I am, or I am even the CEO, so I could like force people, even though it's not nice, I could like force people doing that even though it's a short, short per short time perspective for that of course. But in my previous role, I.

You know, it was dependent on that other people believed in the same business case as I did, and that's often very, very tricky. I believe even though you have great colleagues, they really want to encourage others, but there's so many initiatives going on in a company. Yeah. So I really love that, that you can like smart start small, like doing it as a.

Growth hack or whatever it's called, there's so many buzzwords, but in marketing, you can start small, you can do those 10 accounts, you can really, really make a, a clear ROI and a very, very clear, uh, business case. So thank you for [00:37:00] sharing that perspective too.

Wouter nileman: Yeah, yeah. I'm very curious how you, how you see it as A-A-C-E-O, um, and also looking at your previous position.

Yeah. How important is it for you to get concrete numbers upfront? Like, like investment expected, ROI or are you a bit more loose there, very curious about your vision?

Wilma Eriksson: Well, I'm happy to share and, you know, uh, me as a person, I'm fortunate. I would say I'm very driven by emotions. Okay. So when people tell me.

That they need numbers, uh, to be convinced. I agree with them, but I still know that every human have emotions. Uh, some of us are driven by it and some of the, uh, I have a colleague and a partner in VI school and he's like, uh, to me it's like, it's happened stuff. And then I asked myself, should I feel something about that?

And I was like. What could you do that I was like, you know, uh, being villain is like a lot of emotions that I try to clear out in the mess. So I understand that we are different, but the people that forget that they [00:38:00] are human with emotions, I think they do, uh, they are most blind when they do, uh, when they buy something because they think they do it only on data.

Uh, I am quite certain that we do. Uh, I, I, I, I believe that if you have worked for a long while in an industry or sold something or had done marketing towards something, you have a great gut feeling because you have been there for so long time. Yeah. So for someone with a long, uh, long time of experience, I would more be able to go with that person's suggestions and recommendations without data.

But if there's someone more new to the, to the play, then I would need more data to be convinced that this is the right for us. I. See that you can have it, you know, you just, you just know it because you know it. But if you wanna measure it, then you are blind without data.

Wouter nileman: Yes.

Wilma Eriksson: So I believe, uh, you should always, you should be aware that you need both, uh, data and emotions.

Yeah, [00:39:00]

Wouter nileman: yeah.

Wilma Eriksson: Little bit of a around there, but it's out there now. Yeah.

Wouter nileman: Well, it's, it actually ties into a great point. When you do your, your A BM, is that, that you're, you're doing business with humans.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah.

Wouter nileman: So. Really try to put yourself in their shoes. What are they going through? Instead of just, uh, you know, pumping out a HubSpot sequence with some preloaded text and, uh, personalization tokens with, uh, I can see that add company name that that stuff doesn't work.

Wilma Eriksson: No, it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't.

Wouter nileman: Yeah. Empathize with your audience.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah. Correct. And I actually have a question here. That's something that keeps me up at night. It. Let's say I start doing these interviews, I have 20 accounts. I start doing the interviews like, hi, hi there. Uh, what's keeping you up at night?

Trying to say, you know, relevant questions and then, then they talk about things that are relevant to my service. Hmm. What do I do then? Or am I, have I a wrong ICP then? Or what do I do if they like, [00:40:00] you know, the answer is uh uh wrong. They're not wrong. Yeah. I hope you understand my question. Yeah,

Wouter nileman: I do. I do.

And that is actually, that is why. These interviews are so useful because it can also be a disqualification, right? You ha you have formed a hypothesis and you are now validating that, right? Um, and it could, but it could also be invalidated, right? So the interviews themselves text actually tell you if you are in the right direction.

Mm. So if all kinds of answers come up that do not resonate with your business, yeah, you probably, and that's great. Imagine what would've happened if you didn't do the interviews and you just went on your assumption. Yeah. You might have poured a lot of resources into a market that is not in market for your solution.

Wilma Eriksson: Mm.

Wouter nileman: So it might be painful to hear that they've got other things on their mind, but it's actually great because you can now, I. Uh, cut away a, a certain vertical and, and, and find a new one where your service is actually very relevant. Right. So they're,

Wilma Eriksson: they're taking the answers [00:41:00] non, depending on if they're correct in your point of view or not.

Yeah. Make it, uh, see it as a very, very valuable lesson.

Wouter nileman: Yeah. Talking about emotions, like I, I try to detach myself with my emotions during the interviews and just objectively listen to what they're saying. Right. Right. At night when you're winding down and then, or you're taking your even walk, and of course you'd be like, damn, I really thought this market was for me.

But you know, actually now finding out that it is not, it's, it's a win because. Now you're one step closer to finding your market. A bit of a cliche, but it really works that way. But yet true.

Wilma Eriksson: Yet true.

Wouter nileman: Yeah.

Wilma Eriksson: So thank you so much for sharing your expertise. It's, uh, very interesting to hear and very hands-on.

I love that. Uh, if you want to be more inspired about a BM yourself, do you have a person you follow, a book you can mention, or podcast show or, I don't know, something that inspire you in. Topic.

Wouter nileman: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I actually myself did a course on, [00:42:00] uh, my company called Full Funnel, and they are, they are great, uh, in, uh, doing a BM and, um, super hands-on.

And, uh, just, uh, going through the playbook will, I will actually teach you a lot. So they, they, they are too agnostic, so they, they will not have HubSpot specific use cases. Right. But just learning more about the, the A BM philosophy, um, yeah, you will definitely get a lot of, uh, insights. Uh, yeah, I took a paid course there.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was. Worth the money for sure.

Wilma Eriksson: Good advice.

Wouter nileman: So I can highly recommend Yeah, highly recommend those.

Wilma Eriksson: So, uh, a course at Funnel a course at Full Funnel and also read their playbook.

Wouter nileman: Yes. Yeah. The Playbook is, is great. Uh, it's, it's all, uh, yeah, they, they, they have templates that you can use. Uh, and it helped me a lot actually in my, my A BM journey.

Wilma Eriksson: That is awesome. That is awesome.[00:43:00]

My name is Sophia Alexis. Uh, I am the CEO of K. And my question is, how do you balance investing in future growth under significant opex pressure?

Wouter nileman: Yeah, great. Um. It ties into the last point is, is not talking to your customers but making assumptions. I have seen a multitude of buyer personas solely created based on interviews with sales or customer success people.

But when you ask marketing people, have you actually spoken to the customer? The answer is almost always no. Even for product marketers, revol doing work on positioning and messaging, and it's not bad intention, it is just. A thing that is not very incorporated into a customer journey process, even though the word customer is in there.

Um, and, and, and, and the same goes for how you [00:44:00] empathize with your customer. It is, and by that I mean like really put yourself in their shoes, like creating your persona and drumming up challenges. Is is way different than actually imagine yourself doing their job, like actually doing it. Like visualize yourself walking into that office.

What kind of boss do they have? What kind of questions are they asking? What is keeping them up at night? You can only answer that question when you try to become them. Mentally, and, and, and that is, and yeah, it is. Just stop making it about you for a second and make it about them. That, that is my biggest learning picture is I did this as well.

I called up salespeople and put together a persona and them based a whole them campaign on it, and it didn't work. Why? Because we never really knew what the customer wanted. So, yeah, get out of your own organization and get out there and, and just go to events. You don't have to call [00:45:00] them up all the time.

Just go to events where your customers are and just have a chat with them and be interested, and then you already get the answers you're looking for. That was my learning. So that's why my campaigns in the earlier part of my career did not work.

Wilma Eriksson: That was a very suitable question. I actually had no idea, but, uh, I, I, I forgot it was so, so long ago.

I recorded with Sophia, but it was obvious, very suitable. Uh, and it was great to hear you're passionate about this. Uh, and I really, I agree. It's like provoking, like ask your customer like please.

Uh, going have an inside out perspective that are outside in. It's actually very, very tricky to have an outside in perspective because, you know, it's a lot going on. Yeah. But thank you so much for sharing and thank you Sophia, for obviously a very suitable question.

Wouter nileman: Yeah, great question indeed.

Wilma Eriksson: So now we should wrap up this podcast.

Wouter nileman: Yes.

Wilma Eriksson: And I'm super curious to know what, uh, is your [00:46:00] main challenges. In your business right now, something, the problems you're addressing, something you wanna share with us?

Wouter nileman: Yeah. So what, what I'm always very, like, we are all, all doing so many things online nowadays with our marketing campaigns.

Wilma Eriksson: Mm.

Wouter nileman: But some of your decision makers, or at least part of the buying committee, are not always on LinkedIn, right?

So what do you do? But you also want, don't want to be too creepy with like direct mail follow up or making it very personal. So. Sometimes I know that my, my buying committee is interested in what I have to offer, but I can also see that they're not active on LinkedIn or any of the online channels, but they are part a key, key role in that decision making process.

How do you tackle that nowadays? I. Where most of the activities are online. That, that, that is the challenge I face every time. Mm-hmm. I see.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah, I could, they're very interesting that you're talking about this because I could really see a trend, you know, [00:47:00] after, uh, the pandemic and everything had happened and everything went, uh.

Thank God very digitalized. Uh, but the very unfortunate, uh, reason, but everything for true became digitalized. But I could really see a trend where people wanna meet up. You wanna have those, uh, in real life, uh, event, you know me. Yeah. Have that. Uh, it's, it's always, it feels like the thing that's trending is the thing that we haven't done for a years.

And it doesn't matter if.

That you can actually have in your hands, or if that is the thing everyone does, then the email goes more trendy again, and then back and forth. Back and forth.

Wouter nileman: Yeah, exactly. That is, that is we are getting, we are now in the hybrid model and how do we. Adjust our, yeah. Our commercial activities around that in a meaningful human way.

Wilma Eriksson: When you have cracked that code, reach out again, then we can do a new, new, uh, recording. That would be super interesting to [00:48:00] hear for sure.

Wouter nileman: Yeah, I, I'm totally on that and I, I've seen some nice results recently with, uh. Including a bit more physical marketing, uh, like illa kind of stuff. So doing, doing a bit more experimentation there will definitely get back to you.

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah, do that, do that. And in the meanwhile, who would you, uh, like me to invite to the podcast? Show someone you might get inspired by yourself or, yeah. I don't know.

Wouter nileman: Yeah, I, it's hard for me to come up with a name now immediately, but I'd like a, a true customer journey expert. Basically also tied into that question that I think it was Sophia, Sophia that, that, uh, that you put on Yeah.

Like how, how in this hybrid model are you mapping the customer? How are you adjusting to this hybrid model in your customer journey, and what, what steps do you take to map it out? Very precisely as, uh, but, and so that it serves as a great foundation for marketing and sales teams, a BM teams to get built their, built their plays around that.

That for me would be super [00:49:00] interesting.

Wilma Eriksson: I agree. If someone listening to this, uh, feel that they are an expert with this themselves, or they know someone, please uh, connect me with that person at. Much grateful. And when we have that, uh, I, I would prefer the porn star Martin, if it's okay with you, we have that on our hand.

We meet up, uh, and actually meet each other, not just virtually. Uh, and this song comes up like the really great off the work song. Maybe you celebrate something great happening in your life. What song is this that puts a big smile on your lips?

Wouter nileman: Ah, like a celebratory song?

Wilma Eriksson: Yeah.

Wouter nileman: Ah, that's a great question.

It, uh, it is a song from a Swedish House mafia. I just forgot the,

Wilma Eriksson: I saw them live not so long ago, or now it was, I think it's actually five years ago now. I'm lying to you. Sorry. You know, time flies.

Inside arena. Yeah. And you know, their music are quite, I don't know if the English expression is hard, but it's like, you know. Yeah. So it felt like I was sitting in, uh, [00:50:00] in a storm or something. Yeah. Because it was so fierceful. Yeah. And so I would recommend anyone sing Swedish House, mafia Live, do it outside.

It's more like with the I see. I see.

Wouter nileman: They're always good for, uh, getting the energy going though. So yeah. For celebrations, I like e energetic music.

Wilma Eriksson: Exactly. If I were to choose one, uh, Swedish Shout Mafia song, it would be Greyhound.

Wouter nileman: Ah, yeah. That one. Yeah.

Wilma Eriksson: That was insane. It

Wouter nileman: must be so, must have been amazing too.

Hear that in full force.

Wilma Eriksson: It definitely was. But thank you so much Yeah. Uh, for sharing your expertise with us today. Likewise, uh, take care and see you soon.

Wouter nileman: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure. Enjoyed it.

Wilma Eriksson: Thank you. Bye. [00:51:00] Cheers.

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